Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov’s interview with the 60 Minutes show, Moscow, October 20, 2023

Question: National Security Council Coordinator for Strategic Communications John Kirby has recently said, as quoted by all US news agencies, that thousands of containers with military equipment had been delivered from Pyongyang to Moscow over the past two months. The Washington Post subsequently published satellite images which allegedly confirm that information. What was in those containers?

Sergey Lavrov: I don’t comment on rumours. It’s no news that the Americans always accuse everyone. It is common knowledge.

As for satellite images, we said many times that there is no proof behind the accusations of “poisoning” the Skripals in Salisbury and Alexey Navalny, the downing of the Malaysian Boeing and many other events, including the tragedy in Bucha. We always asked for the substantiation of these accusations. We never avoided a frank discussion.

The satellite images you have mentioned reminded me of the situation with the Malaysian Boeing. After many years of legal proceedings, the Dutch Supreme Court delivered a guilty verdict based on the testimony of 13 witnesses, only one of whom testified in person. All the others were anonymous. Moreover, the ruling says that the use of a Buk system by the Russian military or the Donetsk and Lugansk militia had been registered by American satellites. It also said that although no satellite images had been provided to the court, the judges believed them to be authentic.

Today everyone is talking about the tragedy in Gaza, where a hospital was attacked, hundreds of people were killed and hundreds more wounded. Why not ask the Americans for the satellite images of the attack, considering that they  are undoubtedly monitoring the area? The strike could not have gone unnoticed. The situation in the world would be much calmer if people stopped throwing stones without good reason.

Question: Does it mean that Kirby’s words about military-technical cooperation between Russia and North Korea, which is allegedly sending something to Russia, are just a rumour?

Sergey Lavrov: Exactly. If they rely on satellite images so heavily, there are many instances when such images could help normalise the situation, for example, with regard to the strike at the hospital in Gaza.

Question: It is clear that these talks will provoke panic, hysterics and anger. Is there anything in today’s talks, which lasted two hours behind closed doors, that will please the Russians and North Koreans and upset the Americans?

Sergey Lavrov: Speaking about anger and panic, I don’t care about it. We don’t make friends to upset anyone but to promote mutually beneficial and interesting projects.

It is in this context that we have held substantive talks today, just as it was decided at the summit in the Vostochny Space Launch Centre. We know what we need to do to implement the agreements reached by President Vladimir Putin and Chairman of State Affairs of North Korea Kim Jong-un.

Question: Why don’t we ever make friends against anyone, even when we see that escalation is driving the world to the edge? Why don’t we announce the establishment of a military alliance with China, for example? North Korea would join it too.

Sergey Lavrov: What for? President Vladimir Putin and President of China Xi Jinping have pointed out in numerous documents that our relations are stronger and more effective than a military alliance in the traditional sense of the word. That explains it.

Question: Does the de-ratification of the nuclear test ban treaty mean that we are ready or planning to hold nuclear tests?

Sergey Lavrov: I think that you followed the discussion. We have commented on this issue many times. We also pointed out that we did not plan to revise our attitude to activities under that treaty. We are withdrawing ratification exclusively because the United States has been too long with its own ratification and obviously doesn’t intend to complete the process. As President Putin said, we merely wanted to mirror the US approach. This is exactly what we have done.

Question: Did we see this as an attempt to sober up or bring the Americans to their senses?

Sergey Lavrov: I don’t know what a politically sober American looks like. I can’t comment on that.

Question: They have ratified, are discussing and have published the concept of the transfer of nuclear forces to Europe. Are they prepared to go nuclear? How will we respond?

Sergey Lavrov: What’s so surprising about that? It’s old news. It has been commented on many occasions by the national and military leaders.

We take this factor into account in our miliary planning and in practical activities, including the establishment of miliary units.

Question: What is happening on the Ukrainian track? What can you say about it? What about ATACMS? And what about red lines, or dark red lines…

Sergey Lavrov: There is hardly anything I can add. Only yesterday, in Beijing, President of Russia Vladimir Putin shared his detailed comment on this topic. He talked at length and made numerous statements about the futility of these attempts. All they do is make the regime’s agony last longer despite the fact that the West has been doing everything to make sure that it stays afloat.

All I can do is reaffirm our position. Its gist is that efforts to prop up the Kiev regime and supply it with weapons must stop immediately, and we need to come to an agreement considering the reality on the ground, as well as the core interests of the Russian Federation as articulated at the start of the special military operation.

Question: On our show, we often say that the Americans have grown somewhat tired and even irritated, and that the United States can no longer support the Ukrainian regime either in military, or in financial terms. Is this true? Or is it wishful thinking? What do the Europeans say about it?

Sergey Lavrov: I cannot comment on what the Europeans and the Americans are saying about the situation in and around Ukraine. This is a contrived narrative we are dealing with, and an act of self-inflicted propaganda. They are trying to convince themselves that Ukraine will “win on the battlefield,” and for that reason they must do everything for this to happen. Be my guest. If this kind of wishful thinking helps them live better lives, God is their judge. We will do our job. We know what we are after and that ours is the right cause.

Question: Have you sensed their funding fatigue at all? I know that you have recently talked with Hungary’s Foreign Minister Péter Szijjártó, while President Vladimir Putin talked with Prime Minister of Hungary Viktor Orban. What is the general mood backstage when you raise this topic?

Sergey Lavrov: I think that many in Europe have had enough of Ukraine. So, they rely on self-persuasion to try and keep this situation above water, as if propelled by inertia. I do not know how long they can carry on this way, and whether their voters are ready to accept the worsening socioeconomic situation while Ukraine gets all these incredible billions of dollars and euros.

Question: The Ukrainians have been affirming, including at the highest government level all the way up to President Vladimir Zelensky and Foreign Minister Dmitry Kuleba, that Russia can benefit from all this nightmare and horror in the Middle East because it deflects both attention and resources.

Sergey Lavrov: I do not want to comment on this, you know. These are all-out cynics whose only objective is to make sure that they are not forgotten. And this can well happen, but not because we want it, since we will deliver on our objectives anyway, but because other conflicts unfold around the world, unfortunately, and there are other crises which the United States views as its priority. This does not depend on us but stems from the fact that there are unsettled conflicts, which are primarily caused by the US policy.

Had the United States helped establish a Palestinian state, which was our position in line with UN Security Council resolutions, the Gaza Strip would have been free from such tension, just as its surrounding territories and the Middle East in general. This is just one of the consequences we see resulting from the Americans’ reckless undertakings.

Question: What do we expect when we insist on a two-state solution, considering that Israel already occupies a major part of Palestinian territory? Will they leave? How can all this end?

Sergey Lavrov: We are committed to UN Security Council resolutions. They remain in full force and effect and no one refused to abide by them. These resolutions provide for agreeing on establishing a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders with the capital in East Jerusalem. It is an open secret that Israel has been violating these resolutions by unilaterally expanding its so-called settlements.

I hope that everyone will come to their senses and sit down at the negotiating table. They will have to take out a map and make sure that the practical steps they take are consistent with UN Security Council resolutions and factor in the post-1967 realities.

Question: Regarding cynicism, how does it work? The Europeans keep imposing new sanctions, but they are our second largest economic partners. How can this be?

Sergey Lavrov: This is a genuinely European approach. You may call this being cynical. I would rather refer to this attitude as neo-colonial thinking. It is everywhere: “we decided,” “this is what we wanted,” “we can do this, but you can’t.” Let them sort out their own problems.