Excerpt from an interview with Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov for the Evening with Vladimir Solovyov programme on Rossiya 1 TV channel, Moscow, March 14, 2024

Question: To what extent did the return of Crimea to its native shores in 2014 alter the geopolitical map of the world? How did it affect Russia’s relations with the United States and NATO?

Sergey Lavrov: These events have changed quite a few things. First of all, the mindset that the Americans had developed in the last year or so before the Soviet Union broke up and shortly after. In September 1990, speaking in Congress, then US President George Bush Sr. proclaimed the advent of a new international order which foreshadowed Fukuyama’s “end of history.” A year later, the Americans had no doubt whatsoever that from then on no one would even try to stand up to Washington as the undisputed hegemon, as they would be calling the shots now, appointing the “performers” and determining the runtime of “performances” in all instances and on all continents. This viewpoint was in plain sight.

Two circumstances largely played into this. The first one was the fact that the USSR-led socialist camp, which was part of the bipolar world, disappeared followed by disappearance of the Soviet Union, which fragmented into former union republics within their existing borders. With regard to Crimea, we are aware of the extent of violations of the Soviet law and procedures that went into presenting this “gift.”

In 2007, President Putin delivered his Munich Speech which included his analysis of the developments in relations between Moscow and the West, and the policy that the Westerners had initially opted for with regard to the new Russia. They considered our country significantly weakened and internally unstable. They said it should listen up and be willing to support (or at least not stand in the way of) Western endeavours in other parts of the world, be it the Middle East, Africa, or Latin America.

The audience received his speech in a twofold manner. Some were indignant saying how dare Putin say such things, after all he had many economic problems and was being helped and some promises were made to him. Others laughed it off saying that it was just an attempt to account for the “sad” developments in Russia's foreign policy by Western scheming. But some people took it seriously. They were a minority. The majority ignored it, shrugged it off, or was outraged.

A year later, the NATO summit was held in Bucharest (the NATO-Russia Council summit was held there at the same time as well), where the sacramental words were written down that Georgia and Ukraine would be part of the bloc, which is exactly what President Putin warned against in Munich in 2007. When we were confronted with an accomplished fact and gathered for the Russia-NATO meeting, the President of Russia asked why they did it. The then Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany, Angela Merkel, went into extended explanations, saying they did not give Ukraine and Georgia a membership plan, just said these countries would be in NATO. Vladimir Putin looked at her pitifully.

Indeed, the membership plan had not been mentioned. But this peremptory phrase caused Mikheil Saakashvili to lose his mind a few months later. He took it carte blanche and attacked the peaceful city of Tskhinval and Russian peacekeepers there, thus attacking the Russian Federation, for which he paid the price. Later, during our five-day operation, our Western colleagues begged us to halt our march on Tbilisi.

Question: In fact, the West declared war on us in 2008, overstepping Russia’s national interests and using that NATO decision to let us know that it was not going to responsive to the wishes of our country.

Sergey Lavrov: Something else amazes me even more. They wrote this “slogan” on their “tablets” just a year after Putin’s Munich speech. However, the West realised that we were there for our peacekeepers and the people who were the subject of agreements at the OSCE and the UN. Their security was guaranteed. Russia was among the guarantors. Could we really allow the then Georgian leadership to destroy them?

To reiterate, not much time had passed since President Putin’s Munich speech then. But a lot of time had elapsed by 2014 and not only after the speech itself, but also after our moves in August 2008 and our decisive steps to recognise the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. During this period, after August 2008 and before the Crimean Spring, our relations with the West had become increasingly open and, therefore, tense.

It was unwilling to draw conclusions. Neither the EU, nor NATO was willing to do so. They explicitly began to realise their plan to take Ukraine into its fold, to make it a tool of containment and suppression of Russia, and to prevent our country from taking a dignified place in the world based on its history, economic potential, and people.

Question: The outcome is quite engaging. Concurrently, they are withdrawing from all agreements on strategic stability, breaking all existing agreements with us, and working hard to support the opposition. At the same time, they are doing everything possible to make the opposition feel that America is on its side. The collective West was completely unaware of what was happening in our government and the defence complex, but was confident in its ability to finish us off and destroy us, to the point that it missed Crimea in 2014, which was followed by the hysterical response of President Obama and his sanctions. Suddenly, we responded in Syria in 2015, which caused all-out geopolitical hysteria on their part.

Sergey Lavrov: They were left with no Kremlinologists or experts in Russian studies who had good knowledge and analytical abilities during the Cold War. When the end of history came, everyone around...

Question: Experts in Russian studies were replaced by Russophobes.

Sergey Lavrov: They took things for granted and were sure that Russia would do as told. They stopped training Kremlinologists. Americans are pragmatic people. What do they need Kremlinologists for if we can tell them everything ourselves? It was a complete failure, lack of knowledge of our history, people, habits, our proverbs.

Question: President Reagan tried to learn a few.

Sergey Lavrov: The Russians saddle slow but ride fast. A man will not cross himself unless a fried rooster pecks him.

Question: French President Macron shouldn’t be told this proverb, because the Gallic rooster keeps trying to peck something.

Sergey Lavrov: Not only Macron. I believe this is a major failure of Western “planners” who targeted the entire globe.

Question: We tried to address things like normal human beings but then we were left without a choice. I talked to Director of the Russian Intelligence Service Sergey Naryshkin. He said that according to information obtained in early 2022, the Ukrainian authorities approached their American masters and got the green light to carry out an operation to mop up Donbass.

Sergey Lavrov: True, Plan B was to mop up Donbass. Moreover, preparations for this operation had already begun back then. Since the beginning of February 2022, the bombing attacks have intensified 10- to 12-fold.

Question: We cited specific statistics. Donbass did not experience shelling that intense even once the special military operation started. It was artillery preparation fire. Clearly, this war is not against the people of Donbass, far from it. It is a war with Russia.

Sergey Lavrov: Even when there were still false hopes that the Minsk agreements would be implemented, when the Kiev regime was violating them by shelling Donbass, about 2 million people left there for Russia. And even more did so after the special military operation was launched. 

You have been there. I am going to visit. The Russian Foreign Ministry has representative offices in Lugansk and Donetsk. They will be established in the Zaporozhye and Kherson regions later. I want to go there and talk to the staff at our offices, to see what they need. The Russian Foreign Ministry, our foreign missions and departments, and the Ministry’s Main Administration for Service to the Diplomatic Corps are rendering humanitarian aid. I think it is the right thing to do. We get feedback. The men from the frontline send us videos with greetings.

Question: I saw some of your phrases and your portrait on shoulder and chest patches. They really love you on the frontline. You make life better for the troops. They quickly quote you. 

Sergey Lavrov: I watch documentary footage in your shows as well on other channels. Avdeyevka is all but destroyed. Ukraine’s armed forces dug their defences in there, as usual, in residential areas, and mined everything. It is impossible to fake, teach or learn using Stanislavsky’s system, the joy displayed by the people welcoming our soldiers. They have finally seen us come. And this is in a situation where people have half of a house left, no water or electricity. This only means one thing: they have the burden of the Nazi regime lifted from their shoulders, which treated them like a “species.”

In 2021, before the special military operation and when attempts were being made to follow the Minsk agreements, an interviewer asked Vladimir Zelensky about his attitude towards the people across the line of contact. He was surprised and replied that “there are people and there are species.” In yet another interview he said that those residents of Ukraine who feel a connection to Russian culture and civilisation should leave for Russia for the sake of their children and grandchildren. This was said back in August 2021. And that rhetoric persisted throughout all the years the Minsk agreements were in effect. 

Question: It transpired that our “partners” were lying to us all these years. They were fulfilling completely different tasks than those specified in the agreement.

Sergey Lavrov: Absolutely. That was a confession. The same is true of the “leak” of the audio recording of the conversation the German generals had. This was also a sincere confession. They were talking from the bottom of their heart and recalled the “good old Luftwaffe.” This is telltale.

Question: De facto, they have declared war on us if we look at how America behaves.

Sergey Lavrov: They are already waging it.

Question: French President Emmanuel Macron’s statement that they are supposedly probing the ground but are de facto about to declare that French troops are ready to be brought into Ukraine. The Germans that are essentially…

Sergey Lavrov: Several dozen French mercenaries have perished there…

Question: …they were there all the time anyway. France disagreed with this. I think it disagrees because it considers them career officers rather than mercenaries. Probably, it does not like the word “mercenaries.” As for the death of French citizens, apparently, there is no doubt about this.

Taurus missiles are also a big question. They violate the fundamental document that set forth the outline for modern Germany. Now what? Should be repeal the agreement and demand the return of the German Democratic Republic? Should we refuse to recognise the Federal Republic of Germany?

This brazen, cowardly reaction of the EU ambassadors who are afraid to meet you. What is the point of their presence in Moscow then?

Sergey Lavrov: This is a big mystery to me. By and large, this is just rude. If this is their attitude toward having an opportunity to talk to the representatives of the Russian leadership, we will certainly take into account their lack of interest in this. Let them sit in their offices for the time being and speak with their capitals by telephone.

What is happening now with the West is a frenzy. The worse the situation at the front, the more furious the West is talking – we don’t have the right to allow Ukraine to lose and Russia to win.

It appears that President of France Emmanuel Macron had been persuading his NATO partners for two weeks before he made his public statement. They told him it was a bad idea. Nevertheless, he voiced it. Later the French Foreign Minister corrected him several times. Finally, the French President said that they have not determined their final position but nothing should be ruled out. He said he retains his position and they will think of what else should be done to help Ukraine, in part, by sending troops to Ukraine’s territory.

Question: Does this mean that a war, a direct confrontation with NATO is becoming inevitable?

Sergey Lavrov: I don’t know what plans they have. However, judging by everything, they will be sneaky like the Germans (“we will remotely target deadly weapons against Russian cities”) or will simply say that these are just instructors that are sitting and watching what the Ukrainians are doing.

Question: We have lost the West but gained the Global Majority.

Sergey Lavrov: Yes, this is true. President of Brazil Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva (I attended G20 sessions in Brazil and met with him) confirmed his last year’s plan – to develop alternative methods of payments via BRICS in any case.

Finance ministers and central bank governors met in Sao Paulo the week before last. They are working on this in practical terms. On his return Russian Finance Minister Anton Siluanov said that this is being done. In part, they are working on the transfer to national currencies and the creation of alternative multilateral payments systems. Of course, reserves kept in dollars are being diminished gradually, not in one go. An abrupt move won’t work because other countries keep too many dollars. The main goal is not to harm oneself. This world order will be built along all these lines.

Question: We are saying we are ready for talks. With whom should we talk? The language of diplomacy is gone. It is spoken in BRICS but the West has switched to the language of outright rudeness. The behaviour of the American leaders is beneath any diplomatic standards. With whom can we come to terms? Who won’t betray us?

Sergey Lavrov: When talking about our readiness for negotiations, we always recall the example of the past, notably, Istanbul in April 2022. Head of the Ukrainian delegation David Arakhamia said that they had agreed but the then British Prime Minister Boris Johnson prohibited them from coming to terms. He told them to continue fighting. Mr Arakhamia said this with such a naïve expression on his face that I even felt a bit sorry for him. He seemed to be upset that Boris Johnson had behaved so badly.

We are saying that if you are ready to conduct honest talks taking into account our real concerns, Russia’s lawful interests about which we talked to you for many years but you won’t listen… If you return to what we had called for, let’s talk. But so far we don’t see any evidence.

Question: With whom should we talk? US Secretary of State Antony Blinken? President of France Emmanuel Macron? US President Joseph Biden?

Sergey Lavrov: No. But there was a delegation that came from the African Union.

Question: Is it possible to talk with them?

Sergey Lavrov: They brought a proposal to exchange prisoners. It was backed. We issued a statement. It exerted influence on the resolution of humanitarian issues.

There is a Chinese proposal. China’s Special Representative for Eurasian Affairs Li Hui made a second visit. The main difference of his proposal from all others is that he insists on the need to admit the real reasons behind this situation and settle it by removing the causes that had led to the current crisis by ensuring the lawful security interests of all parties. This is exactly what we suggested many times.

As for Zelensky’s ultimatum, I won’t even discuss it. I find it strange that Swiss Foreign Minister Ignazio Cassis has swallowed the bait. Now he is trying to push through Zelensky’s formula. Meanwhile, I explained to him in New York last January (when we attended UN Security Council meetings on Palestine, he asked me to meet and we talked face-to-face) that this was a non-starter and he would only be wasting his time on it. Now they plan to hold one more meeting in Switzerland without inviting us. They want to complete the editing of Zelensky’s formula and make its final, irreversible, and unchangeable version. Then they would call us and hand it to us as Zelensky said later. He meant to hand it to us but not for talks. They are “serious fellas.”

Question: I won’t even ask you what they are smoking because they prefer sniffing. 

Sergey Lavrov: Yes. Indicatively, this neocolonial mentality is completely immune to change.